The Monsters From Israel
One more time, Israel turned life into death in the village of Qana where Christ supposedly attended a wedding and turned water into wine.
The Israelis massacred, butchered, tore the limbs of at least 51 people including 22 children.
The democratic state of Israel, the moral state of Israel is burning Lebanese children alive to the god of Zionism.
Ten years ago Israel massacred more than 100 refugees in a UN base in Qana. And Israel went unpunished.
Lebanese kids are inferior, aren't they? They do not matter to Western societies. Israel can kill as it pleases and wishes, and it is always unintentional.
Poor Israel, Poor Israelis. They after all are victims defending themselves from the Arab monster. They can kill its children, its grand children and its mothers. They are fighting for survival.
Poor Israel, Poor Israelis. They are the first line of defence for Western civilization and ethics. They can make a mistake and kill tens of children and apologize and the US quickly forgives them. That is allowed.
After all they are human and Lebanese children are Hezbollah supporters that should die for the new and democratic Middle East that George Bush has promised the world.
A Middle East of death, misery and hate. A Middle East where criminals are celebrated and victims are swiped under the carpet of international justice.
That is the brave new world that Bush, his neo-con intellectuals and their Israeli instigators promised us.
The Israelis massacred, butchered, tore the limbs of at least 51 people including 22 children.
The democratic state of Israel, the moral state of Israel is burning Lebanese children alive to the god of Zionism.
Ten years ago Israel massacred more than 100 refugees in a UN base in Qana. And Israel went unpunished.
Lebanese kids are inferior, aren't they? They do not matter to Western societies. Israel can kill as it pleases and wishes, and it is always unintentional.
Poor Israel, Poor Israelis. They after all are victims defending themselves from the Arab monster. They can kill its children, its grand children and its mothers. They are fighting for survival.
Poor Israel, Poor Israelis. They are the first line of defence for Western civilization and ethics. They can make a mistake and kill tens of children and apologize and the US quickly forgives them. That is allowed.
After all they are human and Lebanese children are Hezbollah supporters that should die for the new and democratic Middle East that George Bush has promised the world.
A Middle East of death, misery and hate. A Middle East where criminals are celebrated and victims are swiped under the carpet of international justice.
That is the brave new world that Bush, his neo-con intellectuals and their Israeli instigators promised us.
posted by zadigvoltaire at 11:48 AM
104 Comments:
- You forget that in 1996 the Hiz launched missiles next to the UN camp. Fijian Unifil soldier asked the terrorists to move away and was murdered by them just before the Israeli response.
- You forget that NOW Hiz are using missile launchers next to children to draw fire.
Are all Arabs suffer from memory problems?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyl5d09HMSc&search=idf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_CQpDQ9S20&search=idf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM35dzT9dUI
You might not believe it, but we feel very bad about death of kids in Lebanon.
At the same time we feel trapped... What would you do if you spot the people who fired the racquets running to hide inside that building? Those racquets were aimed to hurt the children of Kiryat Shmone? Would you let them hide and hit again, or would you fire them, assuming that after you inform and advised the civilians to leave the village, the houses are empty ?
This is a tuff decision. I do not envy the pilot or commander who has to take this decision: It's either your population or ours to get killed.
In my house, we are discussing this issue a lot and couldn't come with any moral solution, that will do justice to both sides.
I can just say one thing. You are committing war crimes every day (4th Geneva convention rings a bell? No? So check that out. You won't say you didn't know afterwards). And here in Europe we are watching this very closely. You are committing this and you just say that you are not in an easy situation. Right. Committing crimes is not "an easy situation".
Look at these blog entries 1, 2, 3, and stop hearing the propaganda of your government. You have become a monster.
How do you call the 2000 racquets fired on Israelis cities? This is not a war crime?
Unlike the Hiz we put our people in shelters and not let our soldiers hide behind and among them.
Did you ask yourself why the Hiz decries the lives of its own people? Why they put them under risk? Why they fight women and children inside Israel and not only IDF soldiers?
Do you know that more Israelis' women and children died in terror attacks in the last years then the Lebanese civilians in this war? Isn't that a crime?
Please stop waving the flag of moral and open your eyes to see the whole picture. The Hiz. is far from being moral, but has the nerve to demand it from its enemy, knowing that it is more likely that we will spare the lives of its people.
If HA is moral in its fight then so is Israel. If it is not, then please go talk to them. Your moral arguments are worthless. It is HA that are dictating the rules of this fight. As long as you do not try influencing HA, we know that all your moral arguments are bullshit and are just a cover to support HA.
Not Arabs who suffer from memory problems. And I can not blame Israeli puplic for that.
It is the media !
read :
http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn07212006.html
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cook.php?articleid=9436
"Another UN position of the Ghanaian battalion in the area of Marwahin in the
western sector was also directly hit by one mortar round from the Hezbollah
side last night. The round did not explode, and there were no casualties or
material damage.
It was also reported that Hezbollah fired
from the vicinity of four UN positions at Alma ash Shab, Tibnin, Brashit, and
At Tiri. All UNIFIL positions remain occupied and maintained by the troops."
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr010.pdf
So why Does the IDF alone get the blame from the UN?
And the Israelis
I´m from Brazil and have just read that sad piece of news. Although my country is in the west, my heart, and lots of Brazilians' are in the Middle East at the moment.
Israel is a murder state.
Words cannot express such monstruosity.
Innocet people, innocent children, my God!, don't deserve this nightmare.
The criminals are on Israel's side.
Hizbullah Do not use the civilians as shields. This is what Israel tell to hide it's crimes. Israel is a big lier. Every day something new . About Qana it says in innocency "we did not know that there are civilians in the building" And I say "Wallaha? which means in arabic ? (æÇááå¿!)
!!
But there are some Lebanese just want to be shields to Hizbullah because of their respect but Hizbullah is strong , brave and don't need human shields.
Any way, Israel do not care about civilians and it started its attacks direct at civilians. It thought that they will hate Alsayed Hasan Nasr Allah.
So miserable, because lebanese today love Alsayed Hasan Nasr Allah more than before!
Mikealpha- Well, most israeli's aren't christian either, so I guess that explains why they aim their wepons at apartment buildings where people are sleeping in the middle of the night... Fucking sick.
And whoever earlier said that Israellis put their civilians in bomb shelters-- Lucky you. We're not so lucky in Lebanon to have such an architecture. Ibet some of those mothers and children cowering in that building last night would have been in them.
Mikealpha, you wrongly equate civilisation as a Christian concept.
The Greeks, Romans, Persians, Chinese amongst others were long since a civilisation before the coming of Christ.
It is this sheer ignorance and arrogance that the west (ie christianity) is a superior culture and religion that inflames sentiments around the world and breed the notion that one state is inferior to another, it's people therefore being more disposable than the other.
I am in Los Angeles right now and am watching this like the rest of the world. Why don't the Lebanese make Hezbollah disarm? None of this would have happened if Hezbollah had no weapons.
There is no reason for a militia separate and apart from a nation's military to be operating.
When this first began there was no word at all from the Lebanese government ... only Nasrallah! Clearly, Hezbollah has co-opted some part of Lebanon.
I hear the Israelis have apologized about the children ... when will Hezbollah apologize for targeting civilians which they do routinely?
I support Israel. I just hope that what they are trying to do is possible. The world would be a much better place without Hezbollah.
Poor Mona!
You are talking about brainwash? Look what they did to you. Look who is your hero! Nasrallah is on the terror list of all western countries. How can you support him? He doesn't care about your people dying, He did not ask your approval for this war, He is pulling you to Iran's arms. Do you want Beirut to become Teheran? If you'll follow him, forget about Paris of the middle east, Forget about freedom.
You are saying that there are "Lebanese just want to be shields to Hezbollah" in this case they can not be treated as civilians, they have no right to wail or complain when they are attacked. It is rather shocking and horrifying that they are willing to danger also thier own kids.
The Islamic terrorists and thier supporters are the only people who are willing to sanctify their children, encourage them to become suicide bombers, telling them that by killing innocent people they will come to heaven and win a prize of 70 virgins.
I saw a father on TV 3 days ago (sky). He is from TYRE. He said that when they will run out of missiles, he has 4 extra missiles pointing at his 4 small kids. These are the people you support? A father who can say such a thing is no longer an innocent civilian – he is a terrorist who is willing to kill his own flesh and blood.
Sorry?
Israelis have apologized ?
And so what?!!
It Premeditates killing the civilians , then sorry?
Nasrallah said we will avoid the civilians unless Israel drove us to do.
when he captured two soldiers they destroyed every thing. Two captured and Lebanon have many in Israel.
They should release the captives to get their captives . Not starting to destroy a country!
Then,
"Israel regrets… But no! Israel doesn’t regret in the least. Most of the time it doesn’t even bother to pretend to regret. It says, “We reserve the right to slaughter Palestinians whenever we want. We reserve the right to assassinate their leaders, crush their homes, steal their water, tear out their olive groves, and when they try to resist we call them terrorists intent on wrecking the ‘peace process’”."
From : http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn07212006.html
Zahra says: "And whoever earlier said that Israellis put their civilians in bomb shelters-- Lucky you. We're not so lucky in Lebanon to have such an architecture."
Zahra, our bomb shelters are not a matter of luck. They are a matter of priority. Nobody gave me my bomb shelter for free; by law, the contractor who built the apprartments wouldn't get a building permit without such shelters, and the cost is on me together with that of the flat. If Lebanon does not have a similar law, whose fault is it?
Our civilians are in shelters and our soldiers are far away in the open. It seems that in Lebanon the priorities are the opposite. combatants are supposed to protect civilians; not the other way around.
Mona!
You did not answer my questions and I understand why. I will leave it to your conscious to deal with.
You are in a state of mind that no one can convince you that Israel is sorry for those kids. We are watching the pictures of your kids on TV; it is very hard for us. We feel sorry for them because they are the real victims of this war.
Please do not forget the other side of the picture: They are paying the price of their parents' negligence and the pilot air craft's carelessness (although. there were HZ launchers spotted in the area, firing on the kids of north Israel – I guess you don't feel sorry for those israeli kids?)
You are claiming that Israel captured Lebanese. Israel has only 2 or 3 Lebanese prisoners (all sitting in prison after trial and sentence). One of them is Samir Kuntar who killed a father and his daughter on a terror attack. He was brought to court and sentenced for life sentence – Is he another hero of yours? This is the man you want to set free? Show me one state that would let this man go free?
Ok, guys just watch this video and shut the fuck up. You Hezbilla friends put rocket launchpads on top civilian buildings! That's a war crime. Firing back is not, like you it or not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIT2YfXXjmI&eurl=
Wait for another similar video from Qana.
To the person that called his self "To Mona"
"Nasrallah is on the terror list of all western countries"
So what?
In the east Olmert is terrorist.
Nasrallah protect his country against Israel and her mother USA. So, he is terrorist.
Nasrallah do not need my approval .
About Syria and Iran, give me your proof !
Why should I believe you?
In an westen article I read : "And, if we are honest, Israel is not alone. How many of us want the Arabs to remain faceless so we can keep believing we are the victims of a new ideology that wants only our evisceration, just as the "Red Indians" once supposedly wanted our scalps? How many many of us believe that our values demand that we fall in behind a new world order in which Arab deaths are not real deaths because "they" are not fully human"by Jonathan Cook
why should I believe you?
trust me, I still have a brain. I read many articles. Not just arabic articles. How many of you read about us?
how many of you know that not all Muslims are Ibn Laden?
wait ! Not just articles ! I read also some of Bible, I read some of war rules without any invitation from anybody!
About the civilians , they want but they did not ! There are a big difference. And they talked about themselves not about the kids.
And about the father you talked about, I did not see him , I know that killed people in Lebanon are martyrs. But no father drive his kid to be killed.
Many fathers are happy because the have fighters in the resistance against Israel (NOT KIDS).
Mona come-on... your arguments, and fake anger doesn't impress anybody. I just watched on TV a copy of israel army video that showed rockets fired from behind that unfortunate building. Looks like Hezbullah brought civilians in, and right after started firing from "behind their backs". It's an old HA PR trick. Actually Arafat invented it during Lebanese civil war - strictly for PR purposes he arranged thousands of his people to be slaughtered in Tel-Zaaatar.
About your last comment, To Mona,
I replied when I saw your comment.
Yes I can't believe that Israel is sorry. I said I read some of Bible about kids in war. I found it in an arabic site , so I can not tell you the statements which
stopped me.
The site is not muslim . http://www.taam.net/new/2006/7/30.htm
I put a part from an article also, his writer is not arabic, and he said Israel doesn’t regret.
I believe that you are sorry for our children, and thank you for that . I do not believe your government.
Israeli kids, I am sorry for them , I hate your government, your soldiers, but not the children even those who signed
the missiles, I just blame their parents for that. But your government started the bombing after the capturing. Your government wanted this war
why it did not think in the children? It thought nobody will reply ! You will say Hizbullah did not think. Hizbullah chose to deal with soldiers. Your government
wanted the war with all Lebanon.
Israel have more prisoners.
You said trial. Which trial? who attended it? Israelis? Americans? Is there any real proof for the crime you pointed to?
Father and his daughter! Nice story maybe similar to Muhammed al-Durrah and his father's story !
Do you remember him?
Your story is what Israel tell ! Israel can tell many things.
Mona,
Read this article in which HZ admits hiding behind civillians.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1832971,00.html
Great site, keep up the good work.
We are praying for all the innocent who have died and for their families who are crying.
-- FreeCyprus
http://hellenic-reporter.blogspot.com/
True American
I don’t know what to say but the Israeli government and army are animals. I can’t believe what they are doing. This is the nation how survive genocide and they are doing one in Lebanon. Now I can understand why Arabs hate Israel so much. I think too the Israel have no right to live!!!
Anonymous
I do not want impressing anybody!
I need to see this show about Hizbullah.
Hizbullah is using the civilians and they are shouting "Hizbullah, Nasrallah "
All they want to die!
I can not imagining that people in Lebanon are used as a back to Hezbullah and they still hold the yellow flags
and shouting "We are with you Nasrallah" while In Israel the army do not use the public
but they throw the potato or tomato in their faces !
Mona you are so stupid I am sorry. There is no excuse for murdering children and women this is called a crime. Don’t you see that what you are saying is not relevant with is crime. I know you know only one song Hizbullah! Hizbullah! Hizbullah.
Shame on you and on your criminal and terrorist country!
I read the article , I saw the photo , I saw the other photo in KSM comment.
We all can write, No?
Israel can also bring some people, give them cloths like Hizbullah cloths and some money to do any thing. why these men are looking for the camera?!
Israel need to tell lies for the west who see all this
Thank you because you said that I am stupid
who said I believed about the human shields ?!!
It was a way to show how it is strange that you believe in how public are using and they still loving Hizbullah!
Understand it first!
I said before Hizbullah do not need that.
And Arabians believe that Israel do not care about civilians. So no advantage from the human shields.
Mona are you O.K.?
What is your problem?
Are you blind?
You were feeded and brainwashed for years untill you cannot see for yourself what's going on. You declaims Nasrallah as a mantra, unable to becoming sober.
Comme on, grow up, open your eyes and mind. Stop being Nasrallah's toy.
Stop using his strategy claiming the other side is faking pictures? Those are foreign newspapers!!!!! Not Israelis. Why should they fake them??
Reading you gives no hope for future peace. No hope for honest dialog. How can we deal with your cheap propaganda and your disability to distinguish between truth and lies.
There is no future to this region until you and alike will be able to shift into sanity.
Mona the only lie I see is that Israel on name of terrorist hizbullah kills innocent civilians. I did not think and I don’t think that HA is a terrorist party but resistant. Now days it is very easy to name terrorist who ever you want as it had been done during Stalin’s regime where the neighbor who had an eye on the neighbor’s wife clamed that the neighbor’s husband is against the Stalin’s regime and so the husband could be taken to Siberia.
In politics one should see what has been done not what has been said. What I see is genocide against the Lebanese people period!
Don’t you see what is your government doing? With these actions they trying to pull Syria in to this war and if you will ask why then go and read this article.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20060726&articleId=2824
As an Israeli, I find the discussion above very interesting and have certainly learnt a lot.
However, would someone instruct me whom to believe: Mona who says that the Israelis lie because the Lebanese would never use civilian human shields, or Johannjs who calls for civilians to rise and act as human shields (quote: "All the refugees who had fled must now rise from their shelters and, with their children, march back south, unarmed, and drive the Israelis army out of South Lebanon.").
It's quite confusing.
As a Non Arab and Non Israeli I say you Israelis have no moral right to comment after the criminal act that kills more than 54 civilians, at least 34 of them children. You all are terrorists and criminal. I hop signed your name on the world’s book as an human cancer.
You said my government.
Do you know my government?
I an not lebanese. There never was an war between my country and Israel.
In newspapers or in the articles, you can find liers. Even arabic lier.
For sure there are some liers in this war, you believe it is not Israel and I believe it is not Hizbullah. I know nobody will change his mind , This so hard, you are Israeli and I am Arabian.
Maybe one or all of these are liers:
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cook.php?articleid=9436
http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn07212006.html
http://www.statesman.com/opinion/content/editorial/stories/07/24cook_edit.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/kwiatkowski/kwiatkowski156.html
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/opinion/sfl-22forum22jul22,0,2216844.story?coll=sfla-news-opinion
No one is Arabian from the writers, but of course you believe not all that are true .
Mona I am American and I don’t understand what kind of person you are? If you are not Israeli then what kind of moral rights you have to comment after these women and children massacre to comment behave to Israel. This tells me that even if you are not an Israeli then you mast be Jewish. If you are not then you are Satan.
To Mona:
< Maybe one or all of these are liers:>
As I said “In politics one should see what has been done not what has been said. What I see is genocide against the Lebanese people period!”
You are not paying attention do you?
For the Israelis: why in the world one should feel any pity for you while in order to prevent any arm to your population you are ready to kill 10 times more?
A man that kill a kid to save his own, is human, if he kill 2 may be ok, if he is ready to kill 10 to save his, he simply sound no human anymore
over-reacting is a simple concept.
All I can say is that Hezbollah has been successfully put into the driving seat on this blog and in world opinion. If we read this very blog from January, you will see many anti-HA articles. Read any issue of Beirut's Daily Star and you will seen many articles questioning their power, reasoning and influence. Everyone knows they are trouble-makers that have outlived their usefulness.
This war is unwinnable - worse, it is further polarising the Middle East, where the populations of Jordan, Egypt and Syria are becoming increasingly infuriated by the relentless pounding of Lebanon and (once again) the free rein given to Israel.
What in God's name pushed Olmert to over-react in this way? It meets no practical military goal and has created more emenies for Israel than at any time I've known. Their UN envoy is also one of the most arrogant diplomats I have ever seen. How does he dare insist that Lebanon should be thanking Israel for the work they're doing? Someone stop the man.
We all know the positions of Hezbollah and Slobodan Elmert. So here's a question: where do you see a solution? We've talked a lot about dead children over the past few hours. What about those that remain in Haifa, Tyre, Damascus and Gaza. What future can we build for them? They deserve something better than this mess. And only we can influence that.
The solution is very simple.
1. Stop the killing of women and children.
2. Take all the Israeli army back to its borders.
3. Solve all the territorial issues.
4. Sorrow for the all killings and it should be done by both sides.
5. And live a peaceful life!
There is no magic to this!
To all Lebanese:
Let me tell you what it was look like Jewish life in ancient times that no one remembers it as it is taken out from the books by Zionists.
In ancient time the Jewish were prohibited to enter any country simply because these people were considered as thefts and cheaters. They were cheating on people during the trade and taking their goods for nothing. The only country that let Jewish to trade on their border and enter the country was Iran; that is why there are so many Jewish living in Iran.
And now Iran is being criticize by Israel.
Ask one question for your self. Why Nazis Germany did not do genocide against to any other nation? Or what was the motive of doing it against to Jewish?
So this is the nation you are dealing with, don’t give up.
Peace to Lebanon
Outsider.
Our dear patriot run away to london and from there he offer us how to behave
We all just repeat the same things over and over again. Surely everyone has learned a few things he did not know about the ‘other side’, no?
I think this may be the right format for mutual understanding:
Things I think Israelis should know about Lebanon and Hezbollah:
The non-military part of Hezbollah is helping South Lebanon in many ways where the Lebanese government doesn’t.
Hezbollah is the only organisation that represents (politically) a certain sector of the Lebanese people.
Most of the Lebanese wants to disarm Hezbollah and have already started talking about it internally, but they are afraid this can lead to a civil war. The Lebanese had only 1 year to achieve that (only after Syria left) and not 6 years like it is often been claimed.
Hezbollah is much stronger than the Lebanese army.
As the attacks go on, Nasrallah gains more support.
Things I think Lebanese should know about Israel and IDF:
Israel has no interest in Lebanese soil.
Israel has been continuously attacked by Hezbollah rockets and small fire arms since 2000.
The Israeli public is divided over the Palestinian issues, but united about this war and ending Hezbollah attacks from the north.
The IDF do tries its best not to harm civilians, but rockets are being launched from residential areas.
Israel believes Hammas (and maybe even Iran) are waiting to see if Hezbollah will break the IDF to gain motivation for attacks against Israel. Therefore it will not agree to cease fire for at least a week or two in order to ensure Nasrallah can’t claim victory (he will do that regardless).
Your comments…
For all your talk you seem to be missing the point. Israel never specifically targeted your civilians. They're unfortunate byproducts of your beloved hizballah actions - firing rockets into Israel from "civilian buildings" and hiding rocket launchers in civilian areas.
Hizballah is the one to blame.
What do you suggst Israel did? Sit down wait for Hizballah to free the soldiers and take all the rockets they fire in northern Israel? Let's give Hizballah flowers for that!
Let's give the self-righteous, moral Lebanese a Nobel Peace prize for not having the courage to fight and die to incorporate Hizballah into its regular armed forces, and prevent situations like this from happening in the future, as well as preventing Hizballah from turning Lebanon into a Shia state.
Wake up Zadig! Get your facts straight and your ire directed towards those who deserve it the most - Hizballah (and their backers in Syria) and your weak government. Israel would never have attacked you if it weren't for them!
Best of luck, and sorry for your losses,
Frenchman
By the way, I suggest you take a look and see the videos on BBC's, CNN's, and the IDF's website. They show you the rockets being launched from Qana and Hizballah cowardly hiding among civilians afterwards.
Frenchman
To John Smith.
"Israel has no interest in Lebanese soil."
Please read this article and think twice.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20060726&articleId=2824
Frechman say the truth you are not a French. This is the way you are trying to mass up the information.
To anonymous,
I don’t think it’s reliable.
This article claims Israel intents are to open war with Lebanon and Syria, seize 400 miles of land all the way to Turkey and cutoff sea access from both Lebanon and Syria…
To Jhon Smith
Ok Jhon let analyze the events.
US provided two airplanes with laser missals. It would not be correct to think that these missals are for Lebanon because the Lebanon does not have and strategic places to hit (long range missals bases) and Israel does not have the need for them in Lebanon. They are doing their job without them.
So for who are these missals for.
By analyzing the killings of women and children I think Israel wants to play on the Syrian’s Islamic emotions and pull them in to the war. If this is what it is then we know for who are the missals for; for Syria who has many long range missals bases. And ask your self why is the ceasefire is being rejected over and over!
And after the war sparks it will be done as the article suggests!
What happen to you Israelis? Why don’t you come with your ridiculous comments?
Is it because?
1. “Israel suspends air strikes after deadly Lebanon raid” latest news.
Or
2. You start gaining human feelings?
I am sure it is not the second one.
Frechman
To Anonymous,
I don't think Israel wants another front with Syria.
The cease fire issue:
Israel believes Hammas (and maybe even Iran) are waiting to see if Hezbollah will break the IDF to gain motivation for attacks against Israel. Therefore it will not agree to cease fire for at least a week or two in order to ensure Nasrallah can’t claim victory (he will do that regardless).
But I think a cease fire will be forced on Israel by the US/UN much sooner.
To John Smith
John I really want to believe what you say but what you say doesn’t explain why Israel targets the civilian areas. As for the Israelis clam that Hizbolah hides in civilian areas as sagest you read this report.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/07/28/hezbollah/index_np.html
By Mitch Prothero
And what the old saying says “We live we’ll see”
I Have just received an email from Germany, which may be of interest to people here:
Today, the Berlin daily the Tagesspiegel published a letter-to-the-editor from Dr. Mounir Herzallah, a Shiite from the South of Lebanon. Dr. Herzallah reports on how Hezbollah-terrorists came to his town, dug a munitions depot and then built a school and a residence directly over it. He writes: “Laughing, a local sheikh explained to me that the Jews lose either way: either because the rockets are fired at them or because, if they attack munitions depot, they are condemned by world public opinion on account of the dead civilians.” Hezbollah, he says, uses the civilian population “as a human shield and then when they are dead as propaganda.”
If you read German, See: http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/archiv/30.07.2006/2660279.asp
To Anat
Oh come on Anat! What the German paper says can’t be proved and even if it is true it doesn’t return those murdered women and children back. I am tired to here that hazbollah is hiding in civilian areas. This propaganda started after this criminal act from Israel.
I can point you to deferent source that says it is not true that Hezbollah hides in civilian areas.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/07/28/hezbollah/index_np.html
By Mitch Prothero.
This is not the point; the point is that 600 people that died mostly civilians is too much. If you ask any criminal, why did they do crimes? They would give you thousand excuses.
Arman
Annonymous, you are wrong.
1) It is not the German paper that says so, but a Lebanese Shia who identifies himself by name (unlike you) and can therefore be checked.
2) The information about Hezbollah using civilians as shields did not start after the attack. It has been known for years and repeatedly reported.
3) If I understand you correctly, you are saying that even if this is true Israel should not respond to the attacks waged on her but respect the human shields. You must realize that such reasoning will bring about the collapse of the Geneva Convention for the protection of civilians. Is that what you want?
To Anat
Ok Anat it seems you don’t understand very simple things.
1. Even Lebanese Shia can be paid to lie. Did you check the link I posted? He is a reporter which can lie for money too.
2. What I am saying is that Israel dose not have any rights to kill children and women; which considered a war crime by the same Geneva Convention!
Are you justifying killing civilians as respond to the attacks?
If so then please do what ever and don’t pull the world in to your unreasonable war!
Arman
Arman (Anonymous)
You are wrong again.
The Geneva Conventions specifically protects itself against abuse by the use of human shields.
Fourth Geneva Convention articles 28, 29:
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/WebList?ReadForm&id=380&t=art
Art. 28. The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.
Art. 29. The Party to the conflict in whose hands protected persons may be, is responsible for the treatment accorded to them by its agents, irrespective of any individual responsibility which may be incurred.
This is an essential of the Geneva Convention. Article 28 ensures that no gains will be made by the use of civilians. It accordingly allows the other side (in this case Israel) to respond.
Article 29 specifies that the side with the civilians (in this case Hizbollah) is the one legally responsible. In other words, the war crime is theirs.
To Anat
No Anat you are wrong again. I am tired to hear your excuses for this crime.
I am posting the Paul’s words from another blog in order to save time.
Paul said...
Qana massacre revisited.
IDF claimed it was a mistake at that time.
To refresh your memories,the first Qana massacre took away the lives of 100's of children
It was investigated by Amnesty International and they concluded:
"The IDF intentionally attacked the UN compound, although the motives for doing so remain unclear. The IDF have failed to substantiate their claim that the attack was a mistake. Even if they were to do so they would still bear responsibility for killing so many civilians by taking the risk to launch an attack so close to the UN compound".
Human rights watch said about that massacre:
"The decision of those who planned the attack to choose a mix of high-explosive artillery shells that included deadly anti-personnel shells designed to maximize injuries on the ground -- and the sustained firing of such shells, without warning, in close proximity to a large concentration of civilians -- violated a key principle of international humanitarian law".
This is not lebanese propaganda. These are independent international organizations conducting objective research. and their conclusions are obvious.
Somethings never change.
This is not a war against hizbolla. This is not a war against Lebanon. This is extermination.
This is the Jewish state perpetuating Nazi crimes, simply.
And please stop using the excuse of hizbolla hiding behind civilians. How come IDF has missed them every single time, only to hit children, women and men hiding in shelters?
Arman
Arman,
I quote the Geneva convention and you quote in response anti-Israeli spins on events. Nice.
I'm sure it soothes your European conscience to believe the Israelis are Nazis. Europeans for this purose embrace any and every lie against Israel. It is legitimizing the Nazis with hindsight.
But lies remain lies, and Europe is sinking ever deeper into its utter moral demise. This is your problem, not mine.
To Anat
No Anat you quote some thing that you can’t possibly prove.
Firs of all you are claming that Hezbollah hides behind the civilians with out any solid base!!!
“How come IDF has missed them every single time, only to hit children, women and men hiding in shelters?”
And second Hezbollah is not the Lebanon army.
And third Israel did not declared a war against Lebanon.
So all these Geneva Convention articles you pointing to are not really relevant to the situation.
Finally I am not a European. I am from US and honestly I don’t support Israel or Hezbollah.
Anat I am sorry for your country and for the world, you just made more terrorists whit this act.
Arman
I would just like to sum up the above exchange between Arman (anonymous) and myself.
First, Armand distorts the first-hand witness I quote by pretending it was the opinion of a newspaper.
When it is pointed out to him that this is not opinion but a witness, he changes strategy and claims without proof the witness must be a lier.
Then he abandons this point and moves on to a different one, distorting the contents of the Geneva conventions.
When his mistake is exposed by citing the Geneva Convention itself, he abandons this point and moves on to a different one, hysterically accusing Israelis of being Nazis.
It is a sign of agenda-motivated propaganda that when the truth is pointed out about any specific point, the propagandist ignores it and moves on to a different point.
With his last accusation, Arman reveals what is driving him, which is not a quest for truth but a justification with hindsight of Nazi crimes, as I said in my previous post.
For this reason, I am not going to argue with Arman again. Arguments are for truth-seekers, not for propagandists.
To Anat
Anat no wander you have so many problems.
First of all my name is NOT Armand!
Second of all I see the facts (52 civilians were killed mostly children) rather your false or made up witnesses in 24 hours that dose not make the crime to not crime. Thus criminals have thousand excuses for their crime.
Third, who are you trying to prove or show that you are right?
“When it is pointed out to him that this is not opinion but a witness, he changes strategy and claims without proof the witness must be a lier.”
Last and finely, Anat it is interesting to know how much do you get paid for this?
And please get your war far from us; we suffered enough (sep. 11).
Arman
For those who actually seek the truth, here are some links for pictures and a video from various Lebanese villages during the war:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html
http://edition.cnn.com/video/world/2006/07/30/chance.mideast.attacks.cnn/content.html
PS. You'll note in the previous post that Arman has just invented a new lie, accusing me of being a paid agent. Really, this man is below contempt.
to anonymout,
Well, you can't say always...
http://www.nfc.co.il/uploadvideo/VV-861705958843232.wmv
To Anat's credit, there are more than one account of Hezbollah being active in civilian areas. In fact, the majority of observers seem to think so too. This makes them as liable as the IDF in terms of int'l law.
I've said it before, this was a catastrophe just waiting to happen. Whether it is part of a masterplan to draw others into the conflict is another issue (but no less interesting). When Israel bombed the UN post recently, I wondered at the time whether this wasn't a message to UN members: "you sure you want to come here?" However, that's just speculation on my part.
TO: Arman and Anat
I am an Israeli. I am a leftist and did not vote for this government. However, I totally support it in this military campaign against HA.
While readings your correspondent and watching closely other Lebanese blogs, I realize that my dream for peace is not realistic. I now admit I was a fool for a long time, believing that on the other side there are people who wish for peace and only their governments object it. I believed that once they will get to know us better, they realize that we are not the enemy that we share the same dream, the same everyday life, joys and troubles. I believed that human nature is good; we just have to bring it out.
Now I know I was wrong. We cannot have peace when there are people full of hate, people that are unable to face truth, that trust their leader (Nasrallah) blindly.
It is a very despair conclusion, but I must bravely face the truth and reality.
I have many Arab Israeli friend and they identify with this conclusion. Some of them told me long ago that I am naïve, that they know their brothers better then me and peace is not reachable while your partner is religiously motivated to hate you.
I am not ready to give up my dream for peace, but I realize it is not going to be in this generation, not until people like Nasrallah and his fanatic supporters (Mona and her friends) are around. We will have to wait until there will be a huge change in the other side. It might take one or two generations to come or never.
I will keep this dream in my heart, I will raise my kids to love and seek for it, but in the same time I'll get ready for the worse.
Dorit,
Don't give up hope.
First, while some in this discussion repeatedly express the age-old Arab propaganda regardless of facts, they are not necessarily representative.
I don't judge the Lebanese bloggers at this point, because as the saying goes "you should not judge anyone at his moment of sorrow" (ein adam nitpas beza'aro), and the Lebanesse certainly have much sorrow at this moment. Whether or not they blame the correct side is beside the point.
So I will direct you to other Arab bloggers, such as "Iraq the Model" and the Egyptian "Big Pharaoh" (google them up or go via Pajamas Media). Although they are in no way pro-Israeli (and I don't expect them to be), they are people concerned with establishing truth and rejecting propaganda. To my mind, they are the hope of the Middle East. I believe their numbers are growing.
You also must remember that by now some four generations of Arabs have grown up on libelous anti-Israel and antisemitic propaganda. This is hard to overcome but not impossible. I have much faith in the internet in this respect.
And a last point: although I don't actually know it, I guess that Arman is not Lebanese but European. I have done a lot of internet research of the conflict over the last few years, and have come to the conclusion that the Europeans are repeatedly inciting the Arabs. You may say that the Arabs are collateral casualties of the European hatred of Jews.
If you like to do your own research, I suggest you begin with the website of the German political scientist Matthias Kuentzel (Google him up), an originally green-leftist from Hamburg who at some point began researching the origins of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Certainly an eye opener.
Don't despair. Truth will out and peace will come to all countries in the Middle East. Each of us can help further it through the internet.
Arabs are the most barbaric savage creatures in the world. They behead women and men, blow up Jewish babies, beat two Jewish boys and then eat their organs, etc.
In this case they used children as human shields and then have the audacity to blame the IDF when the children are killed.
More and more non-Jews like myself are becoming aware of the deprived behvior of the Arabs. Israel will be victorious in the end because God is on their side.
Boycott Israel and stop using computers, cellphones etc. We couldn't live without Israel and the Jews but the Arabs are useless.
http://www.shamar.org/emet/analysis/boycott.htm
http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enPage=HomePage
Europeans have to kiss Arab ass because they are being overtaken by the Arab Islamofacists. They say anything to please their Arab masters.
Evil people side with the Arabs and good people side with Israel. There is no comparision between the two.
Do You know why we hate Israel?
The same reason for loving Hizbullah.
Israel let us to hate it.
We want all arabic lands!
Not a half, Not a part.
It is our right.
there will be always a resistance while there are occupied territories and captives
Israel should withdraw from all occupied territories.
we want our lands and peace, for you and for us.
Israel created Hizbullah when it overran Lebanon . It does not want Hizbullah because it does not want anybody to prevent it from living at the expense of the Arabians
About the human shields again. The shields you believe in had been dead. How many fighter Israel killed after killing the civilians in Qana?
Finally,
From Qana,
http://www.wa3ad.org/index.php?show=news&action=article&id=319
If you can not read Arabic, use a translator
Mona,
Repeating the same propaganda over and over will lead you nowhere. What is the point in corresponding with others when you are so unopened to hear and check what they are saying?
There isn't any common base for discussion with you because you denies truth, ignore evidence, twist the facts so they will suit your line. This is not an honest thing to do,
I don't know you! I hope you are still a young girl and become knowledgeable when you grow up.
From the position you are taking now it's useless to even try and communicate with you.
We understood your point but you do not paint any realistic future. From your point of view it's either HA wins or HA wins. No view of the other side suffers. While you get from all Israelis writers a lot of sympathy for suffer and lost of Lebanese. You show no mercy, no warm feelings for human life on the other side, no regret for HA bombing Israeli kids, no sorrow for 500.000 Israelis dislocated.
I wonder what kind of education you received. How much hate you have absorbed? How will you raise your kids, when you are so full of hate?
7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. 8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword. 9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. 10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. [2] 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
http://www.christnotes.org/bible.php?book=4&ver=kjv
mona,
Did you know that Hizbullah is preventing civilians from leaving villages in southern Lebanon. Roadblocks have been set up outside some of the villages to prevent residents from leaving, while in other villages Hizbullah is preventing UN representatives from entering, who are trying to help residents leave. In two villages, exchanges of fire between residents and Hizbullah have broken out.
Don;t tell me... I know you will say it's a lie.
Sadley It's an awful truth coming up from too many sources.
To Anat and 2006 12:34
I know you are the same person, the signature is the same! Shut the fuck UP!!! The one who is doing propaganda here is you! You named me in two places after saying
“For this reason, I am not going to argue with Arman again. Arguments are for truth-seekers, not for propagandists.”
This can tell your level of education.
Anat I told you I am not a European. Furthermore, I am not a Lebanese, I am not an Arab, and I am not Muslim!
I am an atheist and live in the USA, California!
First I was going to tell you that you are wonderful and that I really like the way you were standing your self even though we had deferent opinions. But I felt some coldness from your words and the ignorance to the human beings then I realized that it is propaganda from you. Look I don’t have any interest in to this but it hurts to see all these people dying.
And yes dorit I totally agree with you and whish peace to Israel, Lebanon and to the WORLD.
Arman
No, I did not know .
And do you think if I believed that Hizbullah is wrong , then Israel will be an angel to me?
As I said I love Hizbullah because of Israel.
Can you help me to understand why Israel did not withdraw from Shaba Farms although we all know that it is lebanese?
Why should I stand with Israel if it is an occupier country?
This is what I know about Israel .
From Balfour Declaration until the day.
Mona,
You ask "why Israel did not withdraw from Shaba Farms although we all know that it is lebanese?"
The answer is: the United Nations decided that it is not Lebanon by Syria. Israel still awaits Syria to accept UN resolution 242, which is what will enable Israel to negotiate the Golan Heights including the Sheba Farms. Every Arab side that has so far accepted 242, that is Egypt and Jordan, received back everything they agreed to receive. The world still waits for Syria.
Shaba Farms
On 03.15.05 In an interview with al-Arabiya television, Walid Jumblatt says Lebanon has no claims regarding Israeli-controlled Shaba Farms.
The disputed land known as the Shaba Farms lies along the border between Lebanon and Israel, at the northern edge of the Golan Heights.
The land that has been held by Israel since the end of the 1967 Six-Day War , the land was captured from Syria.
The Hizbollah claims that it is occupied Lebanese soil. Israel denies this, and is supported by the United Nations.
Israel withdrew from south Lebanon in late May 2000 followed by the UN's recognition that it had complied fully with the terms of Resolution 425. Under American pressure, the Lebanese regime grudgingly announced that it would abide by the blue line delineated by the UN.
Since Israel's withdrawal, Hezbollah has kept the dispute over Shaaba Farms. This gives them a pretext to attack Israel for holding land Hezbollah still considers to be part of Lebanon; that is, they claim Israel has not yet withdrawn from all of Lebanon.
On 2000, Israel completed the withdrawal in full compliance with UN Security Council Resolutions 425 and 426, which required Israel to withdraw to the internationally recognized boundary. UN inspectors from UNIFIL surveyed the border (the "Blue Line") and certified Israel's compliance. UN cartographers marked the line in accordance with the 1923 border drawn by the British and French and other available documentation and historical records.
UN approved the border line
UN approved Israel doesn't occupy any Lebanese soil.
Only HA is flaming this subject over and over again as an excuse for attacking Israel.
The last three posts make it amply clear that Hezbollah pretends to defend Lebanese interests while in fact using the Lebanese for furthering Syrian interests.
All these arguments and conter-arguments show how brain-washed are the Monas of this world. FACTS:
1- Israel bombed the area between midnight and 1.00 am.
2 - The building collapsed around 7 am - Any explanation? Why leaving the people inside the building all this time??
3 - Only women and children were inside... Where were the men? If they fled, leaving behind their families then they are cowards. If they were out fighting the Israelis while their families were hiding in the building, then they are COWARDS and IRRESPONSIBLE.
Concerning Hezbollah, we have to ask ourselves: what have they achieved for Lebanon? The Shaaba Farms is a flurry about a field. Seriously, of what importance is it? Strategic? Emotional? Let Syria and Israel squabble over that one. So what other legitimacy does Hezbollah have for Lebanon right now? As Siniora pointed out, they picked this fight entirely on their own initiative. Did Lebanon HAVE to pick a fight right now? What was the logic? Has it advanced lebanon in any way whatsoever? I think Israel completely and unjustifiably over-reacted. But the fact remains that Hezbollah is at the root of Lebanon's current predicament. Now they are defending Lebanon after having created the problem unnecessarily.
And Israelis must also ask: what has this senseless, vicious bombing achieved (and I'm not even talking about Caanan/Qana)? The destruction of a neighbour that had a problem that could be resolved in another manner. A whole new generation of people in the Middle East (and increasingly elsewhere) under the impression that Israel is trigger-happy and ruthless, propped up by a partner that talks of peace while selling it military hardware.
This war is stupid. It's not even worth the bad vibes on this blog. It's becoming depressing to read the patent rubbish on here, particularly when space cadets start quoting the bible and qoran.
Let's remember what's actually important and find a way out of this mess.
I think Israel should let Shaba Farms For Lebanon and Syria to decide about. It does not need this problem.
outsider
Not just Shaba Farms. The captives also. From both sides. and Israel chose the war instead of the swapping.
Olmert today don't want to stop the war now.
Rice speaks about a new middle east.
All this about this war.
To Mona and her friends!
If you are open minded as you stated before, please read this column written by Israeli writer. Reading it might able you to have an insight to how we Israelis view your hate.
This reading can be your first bridge to understand us.
Dorit, Tel Aviv
Why they love to hate us/ Yair Lapid
(07.23.06)
Some 1,500 years of anti-Semitism have taught us that there is something about us that annoys the world
One hundred years of conflict, 6.5 years of war, billions of wasted dollars, tens of thousands of people killed, not including the boy lying next to me on a rocky beach at Lake Karon in ’82, with his guts spilling out of his body. Both of us staring the wound until he was evacuated by helicopter. Until this day I do not know if he is alive or dead. All this, and it is still impossible to understand.
It’s not only what has happened. It is also what did not occur – the hospitals that were never built, the universities that never opened, the roads that were never paved, three years stolen from the lives of millions of young people in uniform. Despite everything, we are still clueless as to the core of the riddle.
Why do they hate us so much?
I am not talking about the Palestinians this time. The conflict with them is intimate, focused, and has a direct impact on their day to
day living. Without getting into who is right or wrong, it is clear their reasons for not wanting us here are very personal. We all know that in the end it will be resolved: Between us, in blood, sweat and tears that will soak the pages of the agreement that is signed. Until then, this is a war we can understand, even if no sane person can understand the way in which it is being waged.
But the others. They are impossible to understand. Why does Hassan Nasrallah - together with his tens of thousands of minions - dedicate his life and his considerable talent as well as the fate of his country in order to wage a war against a country that he has never seen, people he has never met and an army he has no reason to fight?
Why do children in Iran who cannot even point to Israel on a map (mostly because it is so small) burn its flag in the city square and volunteer to commit suicide in order to destroy it? Why do Egyptian and Jordanian intellectuals incite the naive and helpless against the peace treaties, knowing full well that revoking them will set their countries back 20 years.
'So many ways to love your brother'
Why are the Syrians willing to stay a pathetic and oppressive third world country in exchange for the questionable privilege of serving as patron to terror organizations that in the end will threaten them too? Why do they hate us in Saudi Arabia? In Iraq? In the Sudan? What have we done to them? How are we even relevant to their lives? What do they even know about us? And why do they hate us so much in Afghanistan where they are starving. Where do they even have the strength to hate?
So many answers to this question and yet it is an enigma. There’s the religious issue but religious people make their own choices. The Koran (together with the ‘Shariya’ – like the Halacha or Jewish code of laws) has thousands of laws. Why do we preoccupy them so much?
There are after all a number of other countries that have given them more of a reason to be angry. We didn’t start the Crusades, and we didn’t rule over them during the Colonial era, and we never forced them to convert. The Mongols, the Seliceans, the Greeks, the Romans, the Crusaders, the Ottomans and the English, all occupied them, destroying and pillaging the entire region. We did not even try so how is it that we are the enemy?
Is it about solidarity with their Palestinian brothers and sisters? If so then where are the tractors from Saudi Arabia for rebuilding Gush Katif? Where is the Indonesian team that is supposed to come and build a school in Gaza? Where are the doctors from Kuwait with the latest in surgical equipment? There are so many ways to love your brother, why do they prefer to help him to hate?
Is it something that we have done? 1,500 years of anti-Semitism have taught us an excruciatingly painful lesson – there is something about us that annoys the world. So we did the thing that everyone wanted – we left. We established our own tiny country where we could annoy each other without bothering anyone else. We did not ask for much to do this. Israel sits on an area comparable to maybe one percent of the total area of Saudi Arabia. We have no oil, no natural resources. We did not occupy the territory of another sovereign country.
'The Iranians are responsible'
Most of the towns and cities bombed this week were not stolen from anyone. Nahariya, Afula and Carmiel never existed until we founded them. Other Katyushas fell in places that no one ever doubted our rightful ownership on them. Haifa has history of Jewish presence since the third century before the Common Era. Tiberias played host to the last Sanhedria so no one can claim we stole these places from someone else.
Nevertheless the hatred continues as if we do not share a common fate. The hate is operative, toxic, and insatiable. Last week the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinijad called for the State of Israel ‘to be eliminated’ as if we were some kind of bacteria. We’ve become so accustomed to his declarations that we don’t even argue.
Israel never wanted to see Iran disappear. There were even diplomatic relations for as long as Iran wanted them. We don’t have a common border or even bad memories. But they are still ready and willing to confront the entire western work, to face international sanctions, put their standard of living at risk, destroy what is left of their economy all for the privilege of rabidly hating us.
I am trying but cannot remember: What did we do to them? When? How? Why is the Iranian president saying that ‘The Moslem world’s main problem is Israel.’?
There are more than a billion Moslems in the world. Most live in substandard conditions. They suffer from hunger, poverty, ignorance; blood soaked conflicts that extend from Kashmir to Kurdistan and from Darfur to Bangladesh. And we are their main problem? How exactly are we bothering them?
I refuse to accept the argument that ‘that is the way they are’. ‘They’ used to say that about us and we’ve grown to suspect the statement. There has to be another reason, a dark secret that convinced residents of southern Lebanon to escalate things along a quiet border, to kidnap soldiers of an army that had withdrawn from their territory, and to turn their country into islands of rubble precisely at a time that they had finally extricated themselves from 20 years of rack and ruin.
We have become accustomed to telling ourselves things like: ‘The Iranians are responsible,’ or ‘Syria is stirring things up behind the scenes.’ But that is really too simplistic.
What about the people? What do they think? What about their hopes, their loves, their aspirations and dreams? What about their children? Do they really believe that hating us is enough of a reason to send their children off to die?
muslims are all barbarians and their god is the arabic moon god allah. they sacrifice their children to their god. see how excited they are when they die? they are happy to feed their children to their god. when they're not feeing their children to their god they are raping them. mohammed was a pedophile. islam is the great evil of our time.
the great ayatollah khomeini said it was okay to rape a 4 year old child as long as it was done in the childs anus. muslims are all sick perverts, rapists, and murderers. you can see it all over the world. you would have to be extremely ignorant to deny it.
Dorit, you ask the question, so I'd like to add a thought. This was written before Qana, as a view from someone not directly involved. I can't address the issue about Muslims "genetically hating" Israel. It's something you will have to think about yourself. But bear in mind that lot of the threats and talk are just that: hot air. I offer this as a thought, a hard one, but a thought. You are asking, "why do they hate us"? I am not "they". I am an individual with no personal grudge against Israel. But I think this text might sum up the feelings of a good number of people.
+++
I welcome this space where people of every region can talk, so let's try and keep it more or less civil. I think we've run though the range of "you're to blame", "No, you're to blame". I am reassured to a degree by the Israeli contributions, explaining ordinary people's lack of animosity overall to Lebanese people.
But there is one major issue in how Israel is perceived internationally. We don't live in Israel. We don't know your neighbours, your sports clubs. We haven't seen your kids play football or whatever. We don't have barbecues together on summer evenings. So for the rest of the world (and I'll make a headline out of this):
ISRAEL IS WHAT ISRAEL DOES.
I have no emotional connection with the Israelis, apart from a vague notion of them being plucky, resourceful people. But when it comes to Israel as a state, I can only judge you by your collective actions.
ISRAEL IS WHAT ISRAEL DOES.
When you withdraw from occupied Gaza and created the world's largest open-plan prison while at the same time continuing to create colonies in other ethnically-cleansed areas, what am I supposed to think? When you withdrew from the Lebanon and blocked the wells on the way out, what am I supposed to think? When you raided the Palestine prison to kidnap (that word familiar?) political prisoners, what am I supposed to think? When you ignore 27 UN resolutions (correct me if I'm wrong someone), what am I supposed to think?
ISRAEL IS WHAT ISRAEL DOES.
So when you (collectively) escalate a border confrontation and consequently invade Lebanon, what am I supposed to think? When the first targets are civilian infrastructure (Beirut airport, new bridges) even before targetting the Hezbollah HQ, what am I supposed to think? This has been followed by the destruction of factories, the country's largest dairy plant, ambulances, etc. I could go on, but I think you get the picture. Someone once told me, "The Israelis are like the Americans, they're very bad losers. When they feel they have lost something, they will kick and scream and punch until they get what they want". The same person also maintains that Israel is not interested in peace, per se. They are interested in maintaining military and economic superiority. Given the past week, what am I supposed to think?
The current agression is completely unacceptable, deplorable and sickening. But:
ISRAEL IS WHAT ISRAEL DOES.
Michel,
Your information is so entirely wrong that I wouldn't know where to start. I'll just take some of your points:
"When you withdraw from occupied Gaza and created the world's largest open-plan prison"
What on earth are you talking about. Israel withdrew from Gaza as the Gazans demanded. We now have a border with Gaza. We are perfectly within morality to keep it tightly shut against suicide bombers and rockets sent to Israel by the Gazans.
"while at the same time continuing to create colonies in other ethnically-cleansed areas"
Do you really say "ethnically-cleansed"? This is a lie and a libel. Everybody knows that most inhabitants of the West Bank have been and remain Arabs. Nobody cleanses them.
"When you withdrew from the Lebanon and blocked the wells on the way out"
Block the wells? Just add poisoning the wells and it will be perfect.
"When you raided the Palestine prison to kidnap (that word familiar?) political prisoners"
Political prisoners? These were murderers convicted by a Palestinian court which, contrary to an international agreement, were about to be set free by the PA.
"When you ignore 27 UN resolutions (correct me if I'm wrong someone)" This is a lie and a libel. All operative UN resolutions on the conflict were accepted by Israel. The crucial ones such as 181 (partition of Palestine" and 242 (Land for peace) were rejected by the Arabs because it puts demands also on them. Egypt accepted 242 eleven years belatedly and Israel immediately complied. The resolution relevant to the present war, 1559 was fully implemented by Israel but not by Lebanon.
I could go on but this will probably be a waste of time.
Hi Michel!
I'm glade you raised this issue. Actually it's not a tuff one and it symbolizre the difference between us=Israelis to our nieghbours=Arabs.
Without getting into the bottom of the Israeli-Arab conflict started hundreds years ago and took a violent turning point on November 29, 1947, when UN General Assembly voted to partition Palestine into two states, one Jewish and the other Arab. The UN partition plan divided the country in such a way that each state would have a majority of its own population. The Zionist leadership accepted the UN partition plan. The Palestinian Arabs and the surrounding Arab states rejected the UN plan and regarded the General Assembly vote as an international betrayal.
Since then the state of Israel was attacked continually by Arab states, groups, individuals and terror organizations.
If we'll take your equation ISRAEL IS WHAT ISRAEL DOES
It applies also to the other side HISBALLAH IS WHAT HISBALLAH DOES and ARABS ARE WHAT ARABES DOES etc.
In that case….
How should I feel after a suicide bomber kill tenths of people on a wedding day in Netanya?
How would you feel you cannot let your child take a bus to school, you are afraid it blows?
How would you feel when you watch the volgar and barbaric demonstations calling to destroy and kill you over and over again?
Our Arab nieghbours gave us countless reasons to hate them, but most of us don't. We (the individuals) are trying to understand them; we have empathy, compassion, sadness and mercy for their suffer. Some may say it's absurd, but I think it’s the beauty of my nation. This is the difference between us. When they hurt us, we are not automatically turning our anger and disappointment into hate, while they hate us with and without a reason.
If you are acquainted with Israelis, You would probably know that we forgave the Germans who killed 6.000.000 Jews only few decades ago. We do not believe in hate. We are optimistic people, forgiving, friendly and generous. I consider myself to be very lucky to leave among so many good, loving and quality people as my friend and my nieghbours are…. I studied abroad and I've lived outside Israel therefore I know that the people of Israel are so unique.
Along the wars and the terror we are facing from our nieghbours, every Israeli has a dream that eventually we'll have peace.
If our Arab nieghbours could learn not to hate despite your sentence ISRAEL IS WHAT ISRAEL DOES. To leave the past behind, instead of reliving it, we will see a different future in this area.
To Anat,
You are trying to make every one wrong in here. You don’t have any respect what so ever to your opponent’s ideas. This is showing that all you are doing in this blug is a propaganda other then tell your opinion and try to come in to some compromise with your opponents. I guess you are one of those religious fanatics who do not except any thing but what their owners tell them. You are no different then any of these Muslim fanatics that blow them selves for their religion believes but not for their freedom. So halt your propaganda; no one wants to hear your on going repetitions.
Outsider
I do not hate the public. I do not care if you are jews or not. This is your religion . I know that there are some of Arabs hate jews because of the religion but not all the Arabs.
I am not Palestinian or Lebanese.
But I care for the independence for every country, And this so important.
I know that the story is old but it did not over.
I said that before. Israel is an occupier country since Balfour Declaration.
I read that Israel believe in it's right in Palestine.But they weren't there . And I am Muslim how can I believe because of what written in the Bible?
I saw alot of massacres pictures from along time.
Kids were killing before this war in Palestine I believe it is Israel crime, and you believe not . I knew the killing Before I knew Hamas.
This why I hate Israel before this war. History . And There seems to be differences in the history!
The death In Palestine From along time until now, I do not want that for you but I do not want to the others.
About that war, One said Sameer killed a father and his daughter.
Sameer is captured before 2000
And what I know And The Arabs Know that he was fighting for the independence.
He and all the others shouldn't be die in the Israeli Prisons and then Israel say they were criminal
how do we believe?
I will say at the end of all that
Hizbullah captured two soldiers as we all know and I discussed that before. This because of the captives
Israel decided to punish all Lebanon by the war as it thinks.
Some blamed Hizbullah because of the capturing but who think this should be a war?
Hizbullah did not start a war to retrieve the captives. It did not start to destroy Israel.
Dorit, Anat,
I know full well and accept the basic principle about what I am saying myself:
[my country] is what [my country] does.
This is no less true for Lebanon, Syria, France, UK or the US.
And so what I say (which I repeat is a question of perception) can and is applicable to everyone.
So now that we all have had a dig at Israeli actions (myself most notably - I still detest this latest escalation of violence), I invite everyone here to ask themselves what has [my country] concretely done and how is this perceived [there]? Is it contributing to the escalation or is it possibly offering a step sideways?
Mona Stop it!!! Don't mass with facts
If you support Kuntar, you are a beastly person, an evil woman.
In 1979 in the coastal town of Nahariya, Lebanese terrorist Samir Kuntar murdered Danny Haran and his four-year-old daughter, Einat. Danny's daughter Yael, just two-years-old, suffocated to death while hiding in a crawl space with her mother.
Kuntar took Danny and Einat down to the beach. There, according to eyewitnesses, he shot Danny in front of Einat so that his death would be the last sight she would ever see. Then he smashed the little girl's skull against a rock with his rifle butt.
kuntar is serving multiple life sentences totaling 542 years in Israeli prison.
Read about you our precious Samir kuntar here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samir_Kuntar
Kuntar is a terrorist, a murderer
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060728.MIDEASTPRISON28/TPStory/TPInternational/Africa/
http://globalpolitician.com/articledes.asp?ID=1971&cid=1&sid=27
suggest you see the video. HA firing rockets from QANA:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283816,00.html
Stop blaming Israel. BLAME HEZBOLLAH!
To Anonymous 07:23
Your suggestion equal to zero. HA firing catusha rockets which are nothing comparing to Israelis air strikes.
And I suggest you to fallow the news which shows dead Lebanese.
600 Lebanese and 50 Israelis were killed in this war so far, the numbers tell them selves.
Outsider
I will try to answer as shortly as possible :
>The Monsters From Israel
- Oh thanks. The next time you probably will call us " the jewish monsters ".
>One more time, Israel turned life into death in the village of Qana where Christ supposedly attended a wedding and turned water into wine.
- I bring a citation from Wikipedia :
Qana (33°12′33″N, 35°17′57″E; Arabic: قـانـا) is a village located 10 km southeast of the city of Tyre in Southern Lebanon and 12 km north of the border to Israel. The town is suggested by some to have been the location of ancient Cana, where, according to John 2:1-11, Jesus performed his first miracle, in which he turned water into wine during the Marriage at Cana. However, most scholars think that Cana was close to Nazareth and have identified three possible villages in that area.
end of citation.
I will add , that most probably , the village Kafr Kana is the site. Anyway , the Lebanese Cana if far away from Nazareth.
>The Israelis massacred, butchered, tore the limbs of at least 51 people including 22 children.
The democratic state of Israel, the moral state of Israel is burning Lebanese children alive to the god of Zionism.
- You know , if I put a raw egg into a microwave oven , and set the timer at 15 minutes , why wonder that the egg will be destroyed ?
>Ten years ago Israel massacred more than 100 refugees in a UN base in Qana. And Israel went unpunished.
- So did Hizbullah . It went unpunished.
>Lebanese kids are inferior, aren't they? They do not matter to Western societies. Israel can kill as it pleases and wishes, and it is always unintentional.
-It seems that arab children and women don't matter to Arabs !
>Poor Israel, Poor Israelis. They after all are victims defending themselves from the Arab monster.
-We are not poor , but we feel that we really fight monster . Look at mr. Nasrallah : a real monster that ( I citate your exellent post ) is bringing the temple on your head !
> They can kill its children, its grand children and its mothers. They are fighting for survival.
- Exactly that. We fight for our survival . 5 million Jews must survive among 200 million Arabs.
>Poor Israel, Poor Israelis. They are the first line of defence for Western civilization and ethics.
- Exacltly that. The western world must admit , that Israel stands at the front of muslim expansion.
>They can make a mistake and kill tens of children and apologize and the US quickly forgives them. That is allowed.
- A la guerre com a la guerre. But we are really sorry for the miserable children and their unresponsible parents.
>After all they are human and Lebanese children are Hezbollah supporters that should die for the new and democratic Middle East that George Bush has promised the world.
- No ! The chilren are innocent ! Their parents are Hezbollah supporters . Nobody was born as a Jew , Maronite or Shi'a. And the new Middle East will come ! Nazism has gone , Communism has gone , and so will be Islamic fundamentalism. Any false ideology will die !
>A Middle East of death, misery and hate. A Middle East where criminals are celebrated and victims are swiped under the carpet of international justice.
-Exactly that !
That is the brave new world that Bush, his neo-con intellectuals and their Israeli instigators promised us.
-Oh , sorry , the new world with Ahmadinejad and his Hezbollah instigators is much better !
Anyway , I find your blog very useful and send links anywhere I can. And I wish Lebanon , and to all its people , Shii include , peace and prosperity
emil.jakubowicz@gmail.com
Jerusalem , Israel
Emil, this is what has to be fought on both sides:
That is the brave new world that Bush, his neo-con intellectuals and their Israeli instigators promised us.
-Oh , sorry , the new world with Ahmadinejad and his Hezbollah instigators is much better !
It's the age-old prinicple of "Are you with us or against us?". Bush has made a disaster of the Iraqi invasion, divided his own country in two and is attempting to drive a shaft through the world. The vast majority of people around the world know better. Witness the millions of people that demonstrated against the war. Similarly, Ahmadinejad and Hezbollah do not represent either Arabs or Muslims. They are militant factions, the like of which creep up in every civilisation. Look and read up about the ultra-"religious" right in America. It is scary. The Middle East is preparing for Armageddon if you believe them, and their role is to support Israel for the struggle (not peace).
What I'm saying is that there are more than two camps, more than two ways to do things. I object to Olmert's solution. That does not mean I support Nasrallah's - far from it. Look to the real leaders, not the ones that shuot most.
The unanswered questions continue to pile up regarding the Qana incident. I am not saying that it definitely is not Israel's fault, nor am I saying that the deaths of children and civilians is anything but tragic...however, some things definitely need to be answered before I will be convinced that part or all of this tragedy is not the result of some Hizballah media shenanigans.
The Time Gap: The IDF photos and records indicate that the building was hit (either directly or the launchers next to the building) between 12 and 1am. The building did not fall until 8am (seed) - seven to eight hours after the bombs hit. There is no explanation for this gap in time. If the building collapsed as a result of the bombs, why were there dozens of children in the building 8 hours later? And if the building did not collapse as a result of the bombs, why did it collapse?
The Banner: within a few hours of the building collapse, there was a large rally in Beirut against Israel and the US. The rally featured a 30+ foot long poster featuring a picture of Condi and the words ""The massacre of children in Qana 2, is the gift of Rice. The clever bombs..Stupid". According to one comment that I have seen on Israel Matzav (by someone claiming to be a professional printer), making such a poster would be an all-day affair. In other words, for such a large, high-quality poster to be ready and in place within hours of the Qana incident, production would have had to start before the building fell down (hmmmm).
Mr. Green Helmet: Check out these posts by EU Referendum (caution: graphic pictures). Apparently the same two guys (one in a green helmet, one in a white tee shirt) manage to show up in just about every picture, holding mangled children in different poses, with different anguished looks on their faces. Not only that, but at least one of them was also on the scene in Qana 1996. Although it is possible that this one guy was Mr. Hero Rescue Worker, saving the day and recovering all of the bodies, one might also posit that he is on Hizballah's PR team, and was conveniently on the scene to give the waiting reporters looks of anguish to capture on film and publicize throughout the world
Children in the building: According to this Lebanese blog (English Google translation), Hizballah took a bunch of handicapped children, put them in the bomb shelter of this building, and then placed a missile launcher on top of the building for Israel to target. Dead children = good PR for Hizballah and more support for their cause from the Lebanese people.
Even if you don't buy this (I have no source other than that blog post), one has to wonder how it came to be that all of these children ended up hiding in the building next to the firing positions and storage containers of rocket launchers that make such obvious (and legitimate) targets for Israeli air strikes.
(And to satisfy the most ardent conspiracy theorists out there, check out this post which brings up the possibility that dead bodies from Tyre were relocated to Qana in order to perform double-duty as the victims of Israeli aggression. Also see this post from Confederate Yankee - Caution: Graphic Photos - which has more speculation on the same subject)
The whole thing stinks. It is very sad and tragic that anyone other than the people firing the missiles and those helping them were killed in Israeli air strikes. However, that does not absolve us from trying to find out what actually happened, and who was actually responsible.
Some may call into question how it happens that whenever there is a seemingly obvious example of Israeli ruthlessness (like Mohammed al--Durah, the family killed on the beach, or this incident), there is immediate universal recognition of Israel's guilt, and then an IDF investigation somehow finds that things are not so clear cut. If you think that this is the real conspiracy theory, then you are invited to refute this with whatever evidence you may have. Personally, I am more concerned with the first part of this statement: Israel is guilty until proven innocent when it comes to civilian deaths and what this indicates about either the gullibility or biases of the world media and their audiences.
More and more newspapers believe that Quana was a HA manipulation, as they are in despiar for a cease-fire.
http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2006/07/a_tyre_for_qana.html
Lebanese rescue teams did not start evacuating the building until the morning and only after the camera crews came. The absence of a real rescue effort was explained by saying that equipment was lacking. There were no scenes of live or injured people being extracted.
There was little blood, CNN's Wedeman noted: all the victims, he concluded, appeared to have died while as they were sleeping -- sleeping, apparently, through thunderous Israeli air attacks. Rescue workers equipped with cameras were removing the bodies from the same opening in the collapsed structure. Journalists were not allowed near the collapsed building.
Rescue workers filmed as they went carried the victims on the stretchers, occasionally flipping up the blankets so that cameras could show the faces and bodies of the dead.
But Israelis steeled to scenes of carnage from Palestinian suicide bombings and Hezbollah rocket attack could not help but notice that these victims did not look like our victims. Their faces were ashen gray. While medical examination clearly is called for to arrive at a definitive dating and cause of their deaths, they do not appear to have died hours before. The bodies looked like they had been dead for days.
Viewers can judge for themselves. But the accumulating evidence suggests another explanation for what happened at Kana. The scenario would be a setup in which the time between the initial Israeli bombing near the building and morning reports of its collapse would have been used to "plant" bodies killed in previous fighting -- reports in previous days indicated that nearby Tyre was used as a temporary morgue -- place them in the basement, and then engineer a "controlled demolition" to fake another Israeli attack.
The well-documented use by Palestinians of this kind of faked footage -- from the alleged shooting of Mohammed Dura in Gaza, scenes from Jenin of "dead" victims falling off gurneys and then climbing back on -- have merited the creation of a new film genre called "Palliwood."
There is increasing evidence that the Kana sequel is another episode in this genre, a variety which might be called Hezbollywood. The Hezbollah have evidently learned their craft well.
To Anonymous 15:13
Please do not rewrite the history. What you are saying is far from any real base.
I want to ask you this question:
What about the witness that have taken from the building which had pulled out wounded but still alive.
And one reason that the journalists may be prohibited to enter the building because it still was not safe, but I saw the video which was taken from inside the building, which makes your accusation false!
The reason that those children died which some of them did not have a blood on them can be explained that Israel bombs had poison gas which was in the news also.
We know that in the past 100 children died in the UN shelter that was bombed in the last conflict which was not even close what you are saying.
Your comment shows that how evil you are thinking. You Israelis love to rewrite the history for you evil needs. Like the bible that totally changed the history covering Jewish shame history in the ancient times, where they were prohibited to enter any country for their evil nature.
And finally stop this propaganda. I know from the news that thousands of Israeli students have been told to try miss lead the internet US and European blogers.
Shame on you and on Israel. You are the evil on this world and I hop that you will be punished for these crimes.
Outsider
Friends,
in war - particularly a war such as this - there is no"innocent" side. Also, in war - and in every war since the beginning of time - it is the 'civilian' population who are hurt most. As a species, we are simply using our technology to make sure that more are hurt each time.
Does anyone who posts comments here really believe that calling the other side names is going to improve anything? Does Israel believe that Hiz is going to go away - even if the IDF invades? Does Hiz believe that Israel will "cease to exist" just because Hiz lobs a lot of missiles over the border?
Friends, people of Lebanon, Israel and the world of Islam, it is you who are being taken in, fooled. The warmongers profit from your blood and seek only power over your lives.
Fighting, bombing and calling each-other names here will only prolong the problem and continue to hurt you and make you foolish. It's time to think of different solutions.
Please remember this when you hear about the "atrocity" of the Israeli bomb that killed many civilians in Kafr Qana, a place from which Hezbollah has fired hundreds of rockets at Israel. Unlike previous administrations, Mr. Olmert has my respect when he says: "They were warned to leave. It is the responsibility of Hezbollah for firing rockets amid civilians."
Terrorists and their supporters have lost the right to complain about civilian casualties, since all they have is one goal: this entire war is to target civilians. Every single one of the more than 2,500 rockets launched into Israel, is launched into populated towns filled with women and children. Just today, another explosive belt meant to kill civilians in Israel was detonated harmlessly by our forces in Nablus.
So don't cry to me about civilian casualties. Cry to those using babies and wives and mothers; cry to those who store weapons in mosques, ambulances, hospitals and private homes. Cry to those launching deadly rockets from the backyards of kindergartens and schools. Cry to the heartless men who love death, and however many of their troops or civilians die, consider themselves victorious as long as they can keep on firing rockets at our women and children.
Save your sympathy for the mothers and sisters and girlfriends of our young soldiers who would rather be sitting in study halls learning Torah, but have no choice but to risk their precious lives full of hope, goodness and endless potential, to wipe out the cancerous terrorist cells that threaten their people and all mankind. Make your choice, and save your tears.
That terrorists have been unsuccessful in killing more of our women and children is due to our army, God and prayers, not to any lack of motivation or intention on their part. If you hide behind your baby to shoot at my baby, you are responsible for getting children killed. You and you alone.
THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN LEBANON and in Qana---
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com
http://confederateyankee.mu.nu
http://hotair.com
Don't believe everything you see on T.V.!
Email and post this news story, expose the cyber "Israel" supporters for who they are
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2289232,00.html
Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers
From Yonit Farago in Jerusalem
WHILE Israel fights Hezbollah with tanks and aircraft, its supporters are campaigning on the internet.
Israel’s Government has thrown its weight behind efforts by supporters to counter what it believes to be negative bias and a tide of pro-Arab propaganda. The Foreign Ministry has ordered trainee diplomats to track websites and chatrooms so that networks of US and European groups with hundreds of thousands of Jewish activists can place supportive messages.
In the past week nearly 5,000 members of the World Union of Jewish Students (WUJS) have downloaded special “megaphone” software that alerts them to anti-Israeli chatrooms or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints. A student team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to flag the sites so that those who have signed up can influence an opinion survey or the course of a debate.
Jonny Cline, of the international student group, said that Jewish students and youth groups with their understanding of the web environment were ideally placed to present another side to the debate.
“We’re saying to these people that if Israel is being bashed, don’t ignore it, change it,” Mr Cline said. “A poll like CNN’s takes just a few seconds to vote in, but if thousands take part the outcome will be changed. What’s vital is that the international face of the conflict is balanced.”
Doron Barkat, 29, in Jerusalem, spends long nights trawling the web to try to swing the debate Israel’s way. “When I see internet polls for or against Israel I send out a mailing list to vote for Israel,” he said. “It can be that after 15 minutes there will be 400 votes for Israel.
“It’s very satisfying. There are also forums where Lebanese and Israelis talk.”
Israel’s Foreign Ministry must avoid direct involvement with the campaign but is in contact with international Jewish and evangelical Christian groups, distributing internet information packs.
Amir Gissin, the Israeli Foreign Ministry’s public relations director, said: “The internet’s become a leading tool for news, shaping the world view of millions. Our problem is the foreign media shows Lebanese suffering, but not Israeli. We’re bypassing that filter by distributing pictures showing how northern Israelis suffer from Katyusha rocket attacks.”
Amir Gissin, the Israeli Foreign Ministry’s public relations director, said: “The internet’s become a leading tool for news, shaping the world view of millions. Our problem is the foreign media shows Lebanese suffering, but not Israeli. We’re bypassing that filter by distributing pictures showing how northern Israelis suffer from Katyusha rocket attacks.”
That's just not true. We even have the embedded news crews. What is true is that seeing people sitting in shelters doesn't have quite the same impact as watching the ruins if Mint Jbail (sp?), southern Beirut or the refugees in Tyre.
But even the images of suffering should not obscure the basic flaws in going to war and the manner it is being conducted.
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